Government vs International education system

[youngyew]

I guess an important point to recognise here is that we can't help but to offer only generalisations regarding students from international school and government school system. As with most characters of a population, there is a statistical distribution both above and below the mean. So while it's probably true that an average student in an international school may end up more innovative and creative than an average student in a government school, there's no guarantee that ALL students will end up good in an international school. I am in no way trying to discredit international schools; I am just trying to provide a perspective that schooling is just a component (a big one nonetheless) in a person's character development.

[vikraman]

Here's a point to ponder boys and girls who think international schools are not proper value for the money you will eventually spend on them. The average international school student will be able to respond to this forum and defend themselves. The average Malaysian student will be dumbfounded and start playing his Online Games.

I hope clep and eve88 can put themselves in the shoes of a prospective parent in looking at this issue. Imagine hearing horror stories about how teachers are absent or don't give a damn in classes everyday for years on end from everyone you know, imagine hearing kids being subliminally islamised in school, imagine your kid finishing school without a decent command of any global language be it English or Mandarin or otherwise, imagine your kid being called names and racist taunts by teachers in school, imagine living in a state of constant fear if your child can ever make it in life.

For every one of us who can think critically and are able to process information effectively and bloody well reply on this forum, there are thousands if not tens of thousands who similarly finished SPM with us and are stuck in dire straits, unemployable and incapable of fending for themselves simply due to the poor education they have received.

As I was telling youngyew yesterday, yes international schools are not perfect but as with everything in the world it is a normal distribution of smart, creative, talented kids. However, in international schools, the graph is positive biased wherelse in government SMK's the graph is negative biased.

[chongkeat]

However, in international schools, the graph is positive biased wherelse in government SMK's the graph is negative biased.

No offense, but my stand is that just being in a statistically better school is just a part of the battle. It's more about being in the "positive" side of the curve. That's up to the students themselves.

By just asking around for information on schools, a parent has shown that he or she is willing to work hard for their child's education. This is far more important than the choice of schools itself.

A friend of mine who went to the same primary school as I did, enrolled in a so-called "bad" school while I attended an ostensibly "good" school. Five years later, she is totally kicking my ass in every field that I can think of.

[youngyew]

Originally Posted by chongkeat

No offense, but my stand is that just being in a statistically better school is just a part of the battle. It's more about being in the "positive" side of the curve. That's up to the students themselves.

By just asking around for information on schools, a parent has shown that he or she is willing to work hard for their child's education. This is far more important than the choice of schools itself.

A friend of mine who went to the same primary school as I did, enrolled in a so-called "bad" school while I attended an ostensibly "good" school. Five years later, she is totally kicking my ass in every field that I can think of.

I guess Vikraman's point is that that friend of yours could possibly kick your ass (to quote from you ) even harder had she gone to a better school.

[vikraman]

I'm speaking from an overall perspective of exit ability upon graduation from secondary school. Thanks youngyew for the spirited defence while I was taking my rare afternoon nap

There are essentially two types of education systems in the world. Ones that are focused on giving the best to the best students and Ones that are focused towards pulling all the students up to an acceptable level. It's all about allocation of resources really. (For an example look at Singapore for the former and UK for the latter.) Ours is neither. Ours actually is content to preserve the poor students in their state of stupidity (forgive the language.) and trying their level best to pull down the smarter ones to match their level of stupidity as well.

Also your friend enrolled in a "bad" school within the Malaysian syllabus right? You too went to a school that teaches the Malaysian syllabus? Then my point is made for me. My point about distributions being positively/negatively biased was based from the perspective of an entire graduating for a year not compared to different schools teaching the same syllabus.

[chongkeat]

I guess Vikraman's point is that that friend of yours could possibly kick your ass (to quote from you ) even harder had she gone to a better school.

So true.

There are essentially two types of education systems in the world. Ones that are focused on giving the best to the best students and Ones that are focused towards pulling all the students up to an acceptable level. It's all about allocation of resources really. (For an example look at Singapore for the former and UK for the latter.) Ours is neither.

Also true.


Yes, I would have to agree that Vikraman has a point, but what I'm trying to say is, don't get too obsessed about the macro view of things (something about trees and forest, i guess), like not getting into an international school. What students do themselves are usually way more influential on their outlooks and perspectives.

To summarize, good schools can't help a bad attitude, and bad schools can't oppress a passionate flame.

[starlemon]

well. it is the American President Obama who has a quote :

Obama says his focus is on providing good schools for all kids, and that's why he does not support vouchers that allow parents to use public school money for private school.
We need to invest in our public schools and strengthen them, not drain their fiscal support,” he says.In the end, vouchers would reduce the options available to children in need. I fear these children would truly be left behind in a private market system.” Obama is more open to charter schools working within the public school system, calling them “important innovators” which improve healthy competition among public schools. However, Obama says there need to be strong accountability measures in place.

Ways to make our malaysian public school More accountable:

there needs to be better assessment and a greater effort to ensure that every child has a successful teacher.

Particularly at a time when our nation is facing a shortage in teachers due to retirement and retention problems, it is important to ensure that we can attract, support, and retain high-quality teachers.

By experimenting with alternative preparation, mentoring and professional development programs, in addition to providing fresh incentives for serving high-need schools.

Malaysian should build on existing federal education technology programs and create a fund to ensure technology is fully integrated throughout public schools. This fund will:
Integrate technology throughout the classroom so innovative learning technologies can assist in improving the quality of learning and instruction.
Develop technology-based student assessments that allow teachers and parents to identify and focus on individual needs and talents throughout the school year.
Create new technology-based curriculum with leaders in the technology industry so schools can create courses around developing high-demand technology skills and working on authentic projects.
Use technology to allow teachers to work collaboratively with their peers across the country to share best practices and support teachers to provide more individualized assistance to students.

This is a part of step that Malaysian Gov should implement or further revamp in order to improve the quality of public school.

[eve88]

If this were five years ago, I would actually recommend a (public) convent school which will have many students speaking English, as well...

Sadly, a lot of these schools have been gutted - good teachers being shifted to places like MARA colleges, replaced by inexperienced new ones - and the culture in most of these school has eroded quite a bid.

I don't believe things in public schools are quite as bad as vikraman just pictured... not yet, anyhow. And even less so in KL where there would (presumably) be hoards of vocal parents.

Private schools are definitely more likely to provide a good education compared to public schools.
On the flip side, there is a risk of being "isolated" from "normal" Malaysian students - but there are other means to socialise outside of school-related activities.

(Digress : Am I the only one that thinks it cool that I used to be able to skip class to conduct dubious science experiments involving a bottle of lab alcohol?)

[DoomScythe]

Originally Posted by vikraman

D) BRAIN WAVELENGTH???

Sheesh....... That's just a metaphor for "mentality" or "way of thinking". Be a little more creative. Thought it's a common term used by Malaysians.

Originally Posted by vikraman

Every single MNC which has operations in Malaysia operates one hundred percent in English. Nuff' said.

I don't doubt that you have a point there. "Officially", things run in English. But to think that everything will actually be in English is actually really shallow. Let me put it simply, if you work in the back-office, you can survive with English alone. But if you happen to be at the front-line kind of job, not knowing Malay language is a disaster.

Also, most unofficial things in the office are still done in Malay, in certain organisations, regardless whether it is MNC or not. Seriously, if you don't believe me, try going out there to work. There's no amount of arguing on my part here that would make you believe me, only by experiencing it yourself will you understand.

Originally Posted by vikraman

A) I have yet to see tuition that costs 150k? Even 15k for that matter.
B) Why should the girl have to sacrifice time spent growing as an individual and experiencing all that life has to offer and pursuing her own interests to attend tuition when attending school should be all the "schooling" one needs?

:S The RM 150k is the figure that the original poster has to pay if she were to enrol her daughter into international school in the long run, NOT the tuition fees. Sending her daughter to an ordinary school would enable her to channel that amount to tuition fees. Not that I'm saying that tuition fees actually cost that much.

About the tuition thing, let me say it this way. It is a feature of our public schooling system. As I've said above, if you can look past that, you will actually enjoy it. I did. It is tiring, but it is quite enjoyable. Not that I agree with the way of the system, but since it is like this in the present, I prefer to make the most out of it, rather than hating it.

Originally Posted by vikraman

Very untrue. I know many students from international and the common thing that unites them no matter their syllabus or educational philosophy is that;
A) Everyone has an excellent command of English.
B) Everyone is able to discuss any topic under the sun at any time to any level of depth.
C) Everyone is able to adapt to different surroundings and situations with different people due to the fact they have to mix around with people from various backgrounds and nationalities in school.

Theoretically, they should be able to mix with people of different background better. But from the evidence I see (personal at least), they don't fare very well when dealing with the local population. I have a friend who attends an international school in Singapore. 5 years after graduating from school, none of her friends are left in Singapore. Really, being in an international school will mould an individual of different personality than the rest of those who went to public school. Inter-mingling amongst these students is indeed a luxury.


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To all other posters above, please remember that this is not really a debate about how delapidated public schools are in general. The original poster did say that she will be enrolling her daughter into a nice public school with great teachers and PIBG. Given these, I highly doubt teachers absentee, student bullys and other social problems could escalate to a catastrophic level.

My advice is that if you can get your daughter into a good public school, then I think you have already done a great deal for your daughter, as a parent. Happy parenting.

[Seiryu]

On top of the co-curricular activities suggested, may I comment that critical thinking can be sharpened in a good tertiary school. I believe after going through a few years of "correction" in a good university, students will come out fine.

Character wise, however, is hard to say. If your children mix and follow materialistic behaviors of their friends in a international school, it's gonna take life experience to change them.

It takes 4 years to shape your thinking, but it can take a lifetime to learn to be humble.