Originally Posted by luke
That's precisely evolutionist thinking. These people are so vehement about natural selection that they totally reject the slightest idea of scientifically-unprovable power to take part in the process. Again, I would ask, why such a strong rejection?
Beware of the umbrella term "evolutionist" - not everyone who accepts evolution thinks the same way. This is treading perilously close to calling all Muslims "terrorists" after observing just the fundamentalists. There are many people who accept evolution who subscribe to theistic, or "god-guided" evolution.
Originally Posted by luke
Sometimes it makes me wonder if all this evolution aka darwinism theory is a stealthy conspiracy to reject all divinity-based religions. They specifically assert "no, no God in this. it's all natural". And the gullible religious people took the bait and started the creationism faction which totally rejects the idea of creatures evolving from one form to another. All the while, the region in between the two extremes is so deserted as if the idea is not hot enough for debates. Call it "a coward way out" or "an illusion" or whatever, but the path I'm taking is at least one step further away from this endless fruitless disputes. Sure, creationists and evolutionists alike, debate all the way as much as you want, for I am supporting both of your beliefs, well, at least some portion of each.
I can see that you are frustrated by the most vocal of the proponents in this debate. The theory of evolution is a scientific theory (and a fact
), inherently it has nothing to do with belief. Adding an "-ism" suffix is what IDist/creationists have done to degenerate the whole scientific theory to the status of personal belief, and to fall to this trap would be unwise. With a scientific theory, you either accept it or reject it - in which case you improve upon it. The whole process of acceptance or rejection is entirely based on the ability of theory to fully expound on a natural phenomenon; whether one is comfortable with it or not and whether there is an afterlife is totally irrelevant in the scientific endeavour. Therefore, to label one as an evolutionist is as ridiculous as the notion of a "maxwellist", "newtonist", or "einsteinist".
Having said that, over years I have observed overzealous evolution proponents who have indeed transformed themselves into sorts of "Darwinists". They take great pride in the ability of evolution to explain biodiversity (not the origin of life
, for those who have the inclination to lump together evolution and abiogenesis) so much so that they use it as a weapon directed towards theists who have always harped on the "origin of life" as an evidence of the creator's existence. The way "Darwinists" engage in the religious debates makes them appear as though evolution is a new brand of belief or faith (lack of faith, to be precise) in direct confrontation of all theistic beliefs. But if we break down the whole issue into its parts, it's obvious that it shouldn't be like this. Evolution was not a belief to begin with, and it will never be.
The way I see it, evolution indeed makes a strong case of "God does not have to
exist", and all honest people engaging in this discourse should concur as much. However, to further extrapolate this theory to make the case of "therefore a supernatural being / creator does not
exist" would be excessively affronting and is not logically water-tight.
While I maintain that there is no "mandatory" place for a creator in the evolutionary process; I would have no problem with people who reconcile their belief with this process by having God play a role in it. Having said that (before you yell at me, Shoblast), it is obvious that current evidence totally contradicts the literal account of creation of life in Old Testaments and al-Quran; and taking everything together, we come to an inevitable conclusion: either the literal creation in these scriptures were wrong; or God pulled a cosmic prank on us by actually doing what He said he did in the scriptures but planting artificial clues to lead us astray. As for subscribing to theistic evolution, I reckon that's entirely up to personal choice, but I am sure some factions in various beliefs would be quick to point out that this is no longer the genuine belief in the religion.
And hence the internal war perpetuates.