Rukun Negara's 'Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan"

[Vigilante]

Remember we used to recite the Rukun Negara in school every Monday morning/afternoon? Just in case someone forgets it, our Rukun Negara is

Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan
Kesetiaan Kepada Raja dan Negara
Keluhuran Perlembagaan
Kedaulatan Undang-undang
Kesopanan dan Kesusilaan

Just some questions about the first line. Does that mean you have to believe in a Supreme Being to be a Malaysian? What if you are a freethinker? Does that mean you would not have a place in Malaysia? Is atheism allowed in Malaysia by laws?

Assuming that the rights of freethinkers/atheists are respected in Malaysia, would it be proper to make students who do not believe in any Supreme Being recite the Rukun Negara in school?

Remember, students have to raise their right hand while reciting it. That means they are swearing an oath, which they cannot say it just for the heck of it without meaning.

Let's assume that freethinkers are exempted from reciting the first line of the Rukun Negara. Wouldn't you see the problem then? Rukun Negara should be extensive and applicable to all Malaysians. If not, Rukun Negara would be pointless.

Also then consider the faiths of other religions. 'Tuhan' in general definition, means God. Most Chinese religions believe in the will of the 'Heaven' or 'Sky', but not God. Buddhists pray to Buddha (although Siddharta Gautama never claimed himself to be divine, and his philosophy stayed away from religion), Hindus worship deities.
If I made any mistakes about Buddhism and Hinduism, please forgive my ignorance)

[wwhong]

first of all, chinese religion is kinda complicated sometimes. the original one is taoist and then buddhism came in and start to mix. that's why u see some chinese family with buddha and other god on the table. i would say most of the chinese's religion in m'sia besides christian are the mixed one.
by saying will of the heaven also means will of the god.the idea of god and heaven or sky is kinda the same thing but there's also a lotsa gods in chinese belief. that's all i know so far,kindly correct me if I am wrong.

yeah, i kinda have the same question during high school. it's like when i first read it, kepercayaan kepada tuhan kinda means the same as kepercayaan kepada allah and I am not a muslim so does that mean I am not following rukun negara? later, i thought about the same question as well. how bout those who don't have a religion? what tuhan they supposed to believe in? do we need to establish a new set of rukun negara? i was just curious for a while and never asked anyone else. even if i asked i doubt anyone will answer me and will regard my question as crap.

would like to hear more opinions about this...

[topdog]

Not to sound rude, but i think right now malaysia has more pressing problems to think about than the rukun negara...

no offence dude. cheers.

[Schye]

Originally Posted by topdog

Not to sound rude, but I think right now Malaysia has more pressing problems to think about than the rukun negara...

no offence dude. cheers.

Although this may not be a pressing problem but rukun negara is the basis of our country like the visions of Recom.
However, I always put a cross on my left hand while we were asked to put up our right hand and reciting it. It is not that I have no religion or have no respect in it but I think that there is no point of doing this. Maybe it is time to revise Rukun Negara and maybe we can suggest this to Pak Lah ;)

About Chinese religion, to me, I think the easiest way to differentiate the Buddhist and Taoist is the way of praying. Buddhist will pray to only Buddha or Kuanyim only and they never used any kind of meat to pray while Taoist will usually be using meat and they will have quite a lot of gods to pray to, for example the God of the sky, the God of the land etc including Buddha. I think most of the Chinese has mixed up their tradition with the religion so in fact, I think not many really can differentiate on from another.
(Well, I know not much about Taoism so can anyone correct me or explain more about Taoism?)

[Thirdshifter]

Malaysia was founded primarily by Muslims, not that i discredit the other religions but thats how it happened. So the founding fathers might have taught it'll be a good idea to give a vision of say, <italic>Nation under one god?</italic>

For an example, In USA, the In God we trust is one of the most highly debated issue. Before 1952 all of American Currency do not have the In god we trust.. They started to put it on when the cold war shift into full gear. More of a propaganda, Communist = no god = evil? America = Trust god = less evil.

I'm sure one day the Percayakan Tuhan might get removed from Rukun negara, but until someone makes noise about it.. i'm sure the goverment wouldn't mind it there.

Anyway, In schools tere's no more god in the pledge of alliance.

[z]

i don't think this is a trivial matter to be simply swept under the carpet.

doesn't it make sense that we should be clear of ourself, our identity, our believes or our nation's goal if we are to contribute to its advancement?

if the believe in a supreme being is the fundamental requirement of a malaysian, i think some (not insignificant) people will be deeply troubled.

however, of course, no one is really bothered by it because no one is going to lose his/her citizenship because he/she's a freethinker/atheist.

but, to stretch this a little farther, this could very well be turned into a really powerful political weapon to put certain people into exile... *smack* no more daydreaming

[jiinjoo]

in fact z brought out a very good point: what makes you a malaysian? or in his words what's the "fundamantal requirement"? (btw, i like your political aspirations....)

i personally pondered over this fact for a long time before this. i never came to any conclusions. in believing in manisfesto, i believe in being a citizen of a social state where freedom is guaranteed - you can say like US, but in believing in religion i haven't had any commitment so far, and that has sometimes made me look weird when people stare at me and say, "isn't malaysia an islamic state?"

here's a story from my childhood. my pendidikan moral teacher in my primary school thought us our rukun negara in a very different way. instead of justifying why we should believe in God or not, he simple wrote the rukun on the board, draw a big cross on the top 4 and proclaim to the class: "This last line of the rukun is the only important line you should learn." We confused kids will nod our heads in agreement, coz really, at that time, at least for me, i have no personal contact with, 1. God, 2. Agong, 3. Constitution, and 4. Law, therefore why should I care? But I do get a lot of caning from not being nice to people. So it seems to me really that being a good citizen of Malaysia (as we sing it in our school song) is to have kesopanan and kesusilaan. How right was he?

Currently I'm having much contact with line 3 (education issues) and line 4 (paying taxes + speeding tickets), and yet I still don't have contact with 1 and 2, unlike a religious person (for 1), or a citizen of a country like Japan or Thailand (for 2). Is that sufficient? sigh, still a lost 8 year old ...

[luke]

if you refer back to Sejarah Malaysia form 5 textbook (or Sejarah PMR textbooks) you'd read about the main reasons behind the introduction of the Rukun Negara ... it's May the 13th 1969 ... because of this bloody tragedy the goverment at that time was forced to fix the situation and possibly prevent it from happening again .. thus, together with a bunch of stuff they introduce all these things like Dasar Ekonomi Baru, Sekolah Kebangsaan, Lagu Kebangsaan with hope it would sow patriotism among people .. well, that's the hope ... I myself when I studied this topic for the exams I kinda questioning: how the hell would the Lagu Kebangsaan make you patriotic? sometimes you couldn't even understand what those people up there were thinking when they introduced certain policies ... but I do believe they have their good judgment and maybe (yeah, maybe) some good things will come out of it .. anyway up until now I don't think we have achieved what the Rukun Negara, Lagu Kebangsaan are for ... my teacher used to say that before the 13 May tragedy people used to call others by race (like "hey melayu .. hey cina") but they didn't feel offended even for a bit ... heh I absolutely don't think we are able to do that now and stay alive after that ... *sigh* this is what the reality behind our multiracial facade ... so until the time has come or until a better method is discovered, Rukun Negara (and a bunch of other stuff) are here to stay .. if the wording hurts your ears maybe you could suggest something to the people "up there" ... we are currently trying to secure a column in the Star ... the 1st article have been submitted (I read it and it's really good) and hopefully our ReCom will gain some more attentions especially from those who lead our beloved country ..

Originally Posted by Vigilante

Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan
Kesetiaan Kepada Raja dan Negara
Keluhuran Perlembagaan
Kedaulatan Undang-undang
Kesopanan dan Kesusilaan

Let's dissect the Rukun Negara line-by-line by examining its implications if you disobey.

Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan - it's not in the law nor the Constitution. But if you question too loudly why Malaysia is a Muslim state (fundamentalist, according to Dr. M), you may end up in jail.

Kesetiaan Kepada Raja dan Negara - ok, you can be charged as an enemy combatant (or whatever else they term it) if you fight against Malaysia (like the terrorist who took up arms). In fact, Tun Salleh Abbas, former Lord President, was sacked by Mahathir on reason of insulting the King (but of course, the real reason is that he didn't support Mahathir during the 1988 UMNO crisis).

Keluhuran Perlembagaan & Kedaulatan Undang-undang - Well, you can not believe in the constitution and law, but if you're in legal trouble, too bad, you have to argue by the law. Otherwise, off to gaol you go.

Kesopanan dan Kesusilaan - Ahh, that depends, in fact it helps to not b e polite all the time. Maybe your teachers and parents may slap you for being rude, but being polite to everyone all the time guarantees that you will never rise to the top. The reason being your ideas will often be challenge and defending them is crucial. Try being polite and defend your ideas and you'll often end up with a weak argument. Have you seen a top debater who is polite during debates?

[chiunlin]

Originally Posted by prince

being polite to everyone all the time guarantees that you will never rise to the top. The reason being your ideas will often be challenge and defending them is crucial. Try being polite and defend your ideas and you'll often end up with a weak argument. Have you seen a top debater who is polite during debates?

Now, I do not agree with you here. I think it all depends on how you define the word polite. In defending ideas, what we need is a convincing argument with much support and proof and not personal attacks or rude or obscene languages.

Anyway, the original religion in China is confucianisme and taoisme. Different emperors ranked these religions differently during different dynasties. Then came Buddhism, which according to the original teaching, is supposed to be atheistic or agnostic. Buddha did not proclaim himself to be a god nor did he say that god existed.

So, back to the same old question, Kepercayaan kepada Tuhan. I think that why make a fuss? Is it that important to clear this matter up? Personally i think it will create an uproar in the society if we really wish to deal with it. This will only lead ot conflict and discord. Nobody benefits if it is removed, save perhaps future students need to recite one sentence less. It is just like we INTEC students have to study Islam(they out the course as ethics, to make it sound nicer) whether we like it or not.