Fun: Dominic's Dominion of LGBT Issues

[Young]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

I think you missed out that part where they say "queer without fear". Seksualiti Merdeka is a campaign to let homosexual practice to get accepted into the society, even the Muslims.

You can be naive and tell yourself that it's all about treating people indifferently regardless of their sexual preferences, but nobody's refusing service or taking different buses just because somebody's being gay somewhere here in Malaysia. People hate the practice, not the people.

It is impossible to divorce the practice from the person because for most people, homosexuality is not just a lifestyle choice- there is a strong biological component to it. It is a life-defining aspect for the person involved, not unlike what religion is to the devout.

The whole issue of Islamophobia arose from the fear of the religion, and that inadvertently spilled over into hating the person too. You are plying a very fine line when you say it is acceptable to hate a particular practice, and people like you are the exact reason why Seksualiti Merdeka is relevant in Malaysian society.

Want more proof?

So how about keeping whatever it is the disease you're carrying in your little secret society and keep us Muslims out of the picture?

Can you honestly say that you have absolutely no hatred towards homosexuals?

[Nicholas92]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

I think you missed out that part where they say "queer without fear". Seksualiti Merdeka is a campaign to let homosexual practice to get accepted into the society, even the Muslims.

You can be naive and tell yourself that it's all about treating people indifferently regardless of their sexual preferences, but nobody's refusing service or taking different buses just because somebody's being gay somewhere here in Malaysia. People hate the practice, not the people.

I actually disagree with the 'people hate the practice, not the people' part. I think one major reason that a lot of people are aggressively opposed to LGBTs is that they view these people as - extremely, extremely different, to the point of dehumanisation. People in general for instance don't seem to harbour such strong feelings of opposition to adulterers. In fact, maybe it's not that they hate the people, but that they don't consider them to be 'people'.

But I concur with the right of people to 'hate the practice', as it were. Everyone has that right - to approve, or disapprove. What I think needs to be done firstly is to prove that in all other respects these people are least like everyone else - not uncontrollable maniacs, or paedophiles, or killers, just people. The acceptance of their lifestyle choice is I believe a secondary aim, beside dispelling the notion that they are any less human.

[frostbyte13]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

If you're a Muslim, then it's wrong. This whole time I was talking from a viewpoint of a Muslim. Keep that in mind when arguing with me in the future.

Homosexual practice presents harms to Muslims society, in a way that's more than just hurting the feelings of some people. It erodes our moral fabrics and destroys the pillars of our marriage institutions. When you refuse to respect this and starts campaigning to our kids and teenagers that they can be 'queer without fear' then it's only proper for you to get the harsh response from the Muslims community here in Malaysia.

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

Basically lotsatuna, the harder you want to push your idea of RIGHTS to the Muslim community, the harsher the treatments you will get. So how about keeping whatever it is the disease you're carrying in your little secret society and keep us Muslims out of the picture?

And your somewhat absurd observation of Islam, along with the horrendous insults you spewed at it earned you no respect at all from us Muslims. If this is the basis of your understanding of Seksualiti Merdeka and why it should be allowed to be held, then I agree 100% that it should be banned permanently from Malaysia.

Simple questions :

1. What would you do if you find a closest relative or friend of yours is LGBT ?

2. Are you against liberalism (be it partial or complete) in the aspect of human rights ?

3. Do you view LGBT minorities as the scum or thrash of society and should be treated as such ?

No sarcasm or ad-hominem intended. Just wanted an honest opinion from a Muslim who is very against LGBT, and seeing that you sound very educated. Nothing reliable comes out from the mouths of the politicians anyway.

However, I will stress that if you fail to answer this questions in the correct context with respect of what you believe is right in Islam, you jeopardize your arguments you have been basing from a Muslim's point of view.

[Cactus]

Talk about not imposing religion on anyone.

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

Homosexual practice presents harms to Muslims society, in a way that's more than just hurting the feelings of some people. It erodes our moral fabrics and destroys the pillars of our marriage institutions. When you refuse to respect this and starts campaigning to our kids and teenagers that they can be 'queer without fear' then it's only proper for you to get the harsh response from the Muslims community here in Malaysia.

They aren't campaigning specifically towards Muslim kids, but towards Malaysians as a whole. And seriously, eroding our moral fabrics and destroying marriage institutions? Divorce rates are higher among heterosexuals than homosexuals. Forcing a homosexual man to marry a woman would of course, create a union, but neither of them would be happy, because he will never truly love her as a wife. Or do you just want the union, without caring about how the people within them feel?

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

So how about keeping whatever it is the disease you're carrying in your little secret society and keep us Muslims out of the picture?

Now that is just plain offensive. We don't carry diseases. We live. We fall in love. We want to spend the rest of our lives together. Just like straight couples do. Kindly apologize, like any civil person would.

Try reading this article to understand how Muslims can be tolerant, even if they believe homosexuality to be wrong: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/s...d-fuad-rahmat/

Originally Posted by Nicholas92

While I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality and LGBTs trying to educate, I think that given the religious makeup of our society, it's best to keep everything out in the open - i.e. I think the event itself is fine (and apparently it's been going on a few years - no problems so far) but that they've also got to really convince anyone who fear the erosion of culture that they're not promoting a lifestyle nor attempting to spread it, but that they're trying to educate. That at least, is acceptable I think. To ask the country to change its laws to welcome homosexuals is something out of the question now - society it just not ready for that, though it certainly doesn't mean they can't try.

But they never asked the country to change its laws. The country currently has laws prohibiting anal sex, not homosexuality. The point of Seksualiti Merdeka is that they're encouraging people to accept who they are, not start having anal sex. It's also to educate the public on human rights issues for the LGBT community, and how strife discrimination is towards us.

[lotsatuna]

I'm going to steer the topic away for a bit...because this has been bothering me for a while and I thought someone might have an answer to it.

The notion of sexual orientation and gender identity being a "lifestyle choice" is quite... strange to me. I think the closest phrase I can find to describe the feeling is laughably bizzare. Or maybe not...since there's also a lot of genuine confusion mixed in. But anyway.

Just like how straight cisgender people don't understand how another person could fall in love with members of the same gender and why trans people feel incongruence between their identity and their bodies, I too don't understand why people think it's a choice. Or why some of them even think we're lying or we're rebelling because we think it's trendy. It simply doesn't make sense to me, because there has never been any CHOICE in the matter. I don't choose who I get attracted to, I just do. I don't choose how to feel about my gender, I just do. It is an intrinsic part of me.

The only choice I have is between living an honest life because it is the only way I can get the most out of life, the only way I can enjoy life to the fullest, and living a lie just to please other people but wrecking myself internally in the process. What is the point of leading an empty, meaningless life? The second choice is pretty much equivalent to death. So between living and dying, which would you choose?

The people you see fighting for their rights are the ones who survived the choice game. The rest are dead. Dead. Most did not die peacefully. Thousands have committed suicide because they cannot bear lying to themselves, lying to everyone and even lying to God. Thousands have died because some monsters who have the gall to call themselves humans assaulted them, killed them and maybe even raped them in a fit of disgust and derision. You don't have to look far to find the proof and statistics, they're all there.

For some people, this is how it works :
1. The scripture (whichever religion that applies) tells them who they are is wrong and sinful.
2. They can try pretending to be "normal", to fit themselves back into society as "good" and "proper" citizens, but that would mean they are lying. Lying to God too. Lying is a sin.

It's a lose/lose situation. They're born sinners. They're born to be hated on by other people. Where is this choice you speak of? There is none. Unless of course, you want them to force themselves to believe they can be normal. That process will probably just lead to more deaths than successful conversions. Why?

[A 2002 study of recent participants in an 'ex-gay' conversion program reported that, out of 202 participants, only 8 reported being completely 'cured.' Out of those 8, seven were employed by the program as counselors, four of whom were paid. 176 of the participants were classified as 'failures', and of these, 155 reported significant long-term harm, including depression and suicidal thoughts, complete loss of religious faith, and deteriorating relationships with family and friends. 18 of the participants were forced to undergo shock therapy and induced vomiting.

(Shidlo, A & Schroeder, M. (2002). Changing sexual orientation: A consumer?s report. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 33(3), 249-259.)]

(source)



So...choice? I can't even begin to understand it.


If someone would like to explain why they think it is so, please do enlighten me.



---


edit: thought i'd brighten up the place with something that i found somewhere i can't remember...

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by ayjiahui

actually, you do bring up a point. considering that our country holds its identity in being a Muslim country, i actually don't think it's unfair for Muslims to reject this. [and i say this with no intention to antagonize anyone]

To be honest, the antagonism started after they found out Ambiga was officiating the event. Perkasa made noise, then everyone followed suit. Seksualiti Merdeka has been carried out since 2008 and no one objected. Talk about political motivation. The media paints it as this glorious orgy of homosexuals fulfilling their lust for dicks, which somehow leads to lust for animals, corpses, own siblings, parents, etc. And of course, everyone starts fighting back, because they're swallowing the crap the media is pumping in their faces (pun totally intended), believing that SM is some sick organisation promoting free sex. How can we possibly tell them it's not? Propaganda works, even baseless, ridiculous propaganda; the people in charge know it, and they're milking it for all it's worth.

No one cared about SM before, but suddenly, it's this big, bad wolf coming to eat up all our innocent kids.

And here we have an angry Marina Mahathir fighting back:

Marina Mahathir: Why go after Ambiga, come after me if you dare!

By Maria Begum.
Published on Nov 7, 2011 in The Malaysian Chronicle

Marina Mahathir, the high-profile daughter of ex-premier Mahathir Mohamad, has warned the authorities and troublemakers alike not to make Bersih chief Ambiga Sreenevasan and other activists scapegoats for the Seksualiti Merdeka event slated for November 9 to 13.

“For the struggle, ask me. I have been defending the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) community’s rights for over 20 years now. In fact, I defend the rights of all who have been discriminated against, the poor and everyone else. So if there is any discrimination or violence against anyone, I will continue to defend their rights. That’s it. Do you understand?” a seething Marina told a press conference on Monday.

So far, Ambiga has been the especial target of the police and other Umno-led groups, which have been accused of stirring up a ruckus in a bid to make use of the country's homophobia to galvanize the conservative Muslims to their side.

Indeed, it has been an eye-opener to watch rival Malay parties Umno and PAS trying to out-Islamize each other over the event until both sides unwittingly revealed their extremist selves. Some of their leaders even questioned the LGBT's right to call itself a community.

Free sex festival? I'll sue!

In fine fettle, Marina also threatened to sue Umno-controlled TV3 for describing Seksualiti Merdeka as a "free sex festival".

“I have been looking at your face and we know who you are,” said Marina, warning the reporter from the TV station not to misreport her remarks.

Marina said she was there to show her solidarity with 4 activists hauled up by the police for questioning over the event. They are Bersih 2.0 chairman Ambiga Sreenavasan and steering committee member Maria Chin Abdullah, Tenaganita director Irene Fernandez and Seksualiti Merdeka founder Pang Khee Teik.

“I am here only as a supporter because two years ago, I officiated Seksualiti Merdeka without any incident. It is an event to explain and educate them of their rights within the laws, and not outside," said Marina.

“So I am very angry, very angry, there are no words to describe, at certain parties calling this a free sex festival. You have nothing better to do? Nowhere here is free sex allowed. Are you crazy to imagine this?”


Bersih deja-vu

In a series of moves reminiscent of the Bersih crackdown, police had banned the event, summoned Ambiga and the others to be questioned while the BN-controlled press especially Utusan rushed to paint the LGBT community as being 'animals' without morals.

While Malaysia is for most part is largely homophobic, there is growing disquiet that the Umno groups as well as PAS have over-reached their boundaries, and needed to be reined and taken to task for their fanaticism.

Perkasa and other Umno-linked groups have held noisy protests, hurling nasty invective against them including calling them 'animals'.

Seksualiti Merdeka has been holding its yearly event since 2008 and the unprecedented attacks by the police and Muslim groups have shocked its organizing committee. Police have already banned their event, citing a threat to public order.

Dishonest charade

Inspector General of Police, Ismail Omar, has agreed to meet the organizers of Seksualiti Merdeka. The organizers on their part have also agreed to stop all public events pending the meeting. But pundits warned that Ismail was unlikely to give the organizers a fair hearing.

"This meeting is a dishonest charade on the part of the police. This show is put on to pretend to the people that they are not high-handed," PKR vice president N Surendran told Malaysia Chronicle.

"Police had no business banning the event in the first place. They acted unlawfully and stupidly. The BN Home Ministry and police leadership are a major threat to the freedom of the people. They treat the Constitution like trash, while pretending to uphold the law. In due course, they will have to answer for their misdeeds."

Originally Posted by ayjiahui

re: why shouldn't they cancel the event if Muslims support it?
if this is an integral part of a country's identity, even more reason for there to be opposition, considering that as a nation we are still very conservative!

I don't think we have a very good image in the eyes of the world. Several international organisations, including the Human Rights Watch, have issued press releases condemning Malaysia for banning Seksualiti Merdeka.

Originally Posted by lotsatuna

If someone would like to explain why they think it is so, please do enlighten me.

I had a rather long discussion with a devout Christian friend of mine, and he provided some clues as to why some people still think that way.

He believes that homosexuality is a product of external influences, as opposed to biological influences, such as one's experience growing up. One of the reasons behind this is that those LGBTs he asked, stated that they were closer to guys growing up, and felt that he could connect with guys emotionally better than girls. There were also lesbians who told him that they hated guys.

I think one of the problems behind the pervading ignorance is that even the members of the LGBT community are starting to believe what people say about them. They tell others that there is some cause behind their sexuality, as opposed to it being purely biological. This could have been caused by the years of brainwashing by the community, until they have been conditioned to think that they are unnatural, and could not have been born that way.

This friend of mine believes that LGBTs can and do fall in love. However, he believes this love to be a result of their past experiences, instead of something natural. He does not think that it is sick, or a perversion, but simply a sin in the eyes of God. That is his justification for his opinion, and I could see that he wasn't budging regardless of anything I say so we pretty much agreed to disagree.

He does not condone discrimination in any form and even wanted to attend Seksualiti Merdeka to learn more about it. Of course, a few days later, we discovered that it was now banned.

[frostbyte13]

Originally Posted by Cactus

Talk about not imposing religion on anyone.

Wonder if she gave up already. Oh well.

This is the problem with religion sometimes. Religious hypocrisy, when taken to the extreme, harms the very principles of the faith one stands for (e.g. not judging, patient, respectful, sensitive, etc). Even if religion calls us to be against certain sins of life, it doesn't call us to be outright insensitive and throw away our modesty in talking about the issue. I don't know about the rest of the recognized religions out there, but as far as I know, Christian teachings warns believers to be conscious about things that can cause us to stumble (i.e. choosing homosexuality as a lifestyle), not hate the individuals who are already doing it because we are to love and respect our fellow humans regardless of who they are. Which is why I disagree with how certain people who claim themselves 'Christians' and 'religious' can justify acts of insensitivity using false interpretation of doctrine. Even atheist understand the need to have compassion to our fellow man(woman) as a basis of moral principles.

Back to the issue at hand, I am for Seksualiti Merdeka. Although I do not condone homosexuality as a choice in the first place (unless by some rare circumstance, you were born a genuine genetic LGBT), it cannot be helped because such is the flaw of man. In life we may make wrong choices, but maybe some people have come to terms to accept their decisions as the best they've made. Our part should be to accept differences in opinions and not to be discriminating. We cannot assume that every single LGBT doesn't want to live their lives normally like everyone else. They want a job that pays good money, they want a home, they want a family, and most of all, they want acceptance. The only aspect they are different from us is the sexual orientation.

Communal discrimination of the LGBT minority pushes them to resort to the kinds of jobs we would blindly associate them with in the first place. It only serves to worsen the problem. The same social pressure pushes them to also live secretive lives in fear of public humiliation and backlash, the very same quality we would depict in LGBT minorities : living a life of secrecy presumably of lustful fleshly encounters daily. True homosexuality is not a relationship just only based on sex, it's based on real emotional feelings for each other. In fact, I think successful homosexual marriages in Hollywood can put heterosexual marriages to shame, considering the very high number of divorces in the world of Hollywood. I can't really say much for transsexuals and bisexuals in terms of marriage, but principally I believe that even these group of people are capable of living very normal lives given the chance.

I'd always remember these words of wisdom that I learned from a former homosexual speaker :

"I am comfortable with you as a person generally. I just don't like what you are doing for a lifestyle, but I will accept that it is your choice."

Last minute edit : Oh, ok. So you guys are trying to bust the "LGBT as a life choice" issue ? Well, maybe it is for some people, maybe not so. I'd phrase what you guys are getting at is "instinctive decision to be LGBT" Hope it contributes to the healthy discussion.

Originally Posted by Dominic

But they never asked the country to change its laws. The country currently has laws prohibiting anal sex, not homosexuality. The point of Seksualiti Merdeka is that they're encouraging people to accept who they are, not start having anal sex. It's also to educate the public on human rights issues for the LGBT community, and how strife discrimination is towards us.

Haha, very very good point ! And to think, we have genuine heterosexual couples who do this for the sake of pleasure and plain indecency. On the other hand, the genuine homosexuals only have anal sex for real emotional reasons of being human. Like I said before and this example really helped me put a stance to it, the same-sex relationship is never always about sex.

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by frostbyte13

Haha, very very good point ! And to think, we have genuine heterosexual couples who do this for the sake of pleasure and plain indecency. On the other hand, the genuine homosexuals only have anal sex for real emotional reasons of being human. Like I said before and this example really helped me put a stance to it, the same-sex relationship is never always about sex.

Our country's laws are against carnal intercourse against the order of nature, which means that any form of sexual intercourse that doesn't involve the penis AND the vagina is illegal. This, of course, involves not only anal sex, but oral sex as well. Now, if this law were to be truly enforced, we'll probably see hundreds, perhaps even thousands of heterosexual couples in prison for the crime of unnatural sex.

And another point I'd like to make is that not all homosexuals have anal sex. A lot of people fail to realize that lovemaking between homosexuals doesn't entail anal sex exclusively. I'd rather not describe the process here, but believe me when I say that it's not something every gay couple does, unlike vaginal sex between heterosexual couples.

[frostbyte13]

Originally Posted by Dominic

Our country's laws are against carnal intercourse against the order of nature, which means that any form of sexual intercourse that doesn't involve the penis AND the vagina is illegal. This, of course, involves not only anal sex, but oral sex as well. Now, if this law were to be truly enforced, we'll probably see hundreds, perhaps even thousands of heterosexual couples in prison for the crime of unnatural sex.

And another point I'd like to make is that not all homosexuals have anal sex. A lot of people fail to realize that lovemaking between homosexuals doesn't entail anal sex exclusively. I'd rather not describe the process here, but believe me when I say that it's not something every gay couple does, unlike vaginal sex between heterosexual couples.

Here, here ! Don't have to, I kinda have a good idea of what you meant since I wiki-ed non-penetrative sex for research purpose before But at least, now I can be reassured it's not always anal sex then