Fun: Dominic's Dominion of LGBT Issues

[nickvl]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

Yes, I'm good at recognizing people who lives under the rock, a cave or whatever habitat that may metaphorically define a seemingly unintelligent, uncivilised, and/or primitive human being; especially when they start name-calling after getting all too emotional over some internet arguments.

Well said indeed. Though I think you missed out 'barbaric'.



/not a serious post

[surayahamdan]

Originally Posted by joan2468

No, but I don't suppose calling for the end of discrimination based on sexuality and instead encouraging treatment of all individuals with respect and compassion is a retardation, now, is it?

Because that's what Seksualiti Merdeka is about. Just in case you don't know.

I think you missed out that part where they say "queer without fear". Seksualiti Merdeka is a campaign to let homosexual practice to get accepted into the society, even the Muslims.

You can be naive and tell yourself that it's all about treating people indifferently regardless of their sexual preferences, but nobody's refusing service or taking different buses just because somebody's being gay somewhere here in Malaysia. People hate the practice, not the people.

[Cactus]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

I think you missed out that part where they say "queer without fear". Seksualiti Merdeka is a campaign to let homosexual practice to get accepted into the society, even the Muslims.

You can be naive and tell yourself that it's all about treating people indifferently regardless of their sexual preferences, but nobody's refusing service or taking different buses just because somebody's being gay somewhere here in Malaysia. People hate the practice, not the people.

Nothing to fear when you're doing nothing wrong.

Nobody gets hurt, except the "feelings" of some people.

So, just because "people" hate the practice, the other people are not allowed to hold a gathering to say they disagree?

[surayahamdan]

Originally Posted by Cactus

Nothing to fear when you're doing nothing wrong.

Nobody gets hurt, except the "feelings" of some people.

So, just because "people" hate the practice, the other people are not allowed to hold a gathering to say they disagree?

If you're a Muslim, then it's wrong. This whole time I was talking from a viewpoint of a Muslim. Keep that in mind when arguing with me in the future.

Homosexual practice presents harms to Muslims society, in a way that's more than just hurting the feelings of some people. It erodes our moral fabrics and destroys the pillars of our marriage institutions. When you refuse to respect this and starts campaigning to our kids and teenagers that they can be 'queer without fear' then it's only proper for you to get the harsh response from the Muslims community here in Malaysia.

[ayjiahui]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

I think you missed out that part where they say "queer without fear". Seksualiti Merdeka is a campaign to let homosexual practice to get accepted into the society, even the Muslims.

ehhhhh!! didn't you say sexualiti merdeka is not about LGBT rights?

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

If you're a Muslim, then it's wrong. This whole time I was talking from a viewpoint of a Muslim. Keep that in mind when arguing with me in the future.

Homosexual practice presents harms to Muslims society, in a way that's more than just hurting the feelings of some people. It erodes our moral fabrics and destroys the pillars of our marriage institutions. When you refuse to respect this and starts campaigning to our kids and teenagers that they can be 'queer without fear' then it's only proper for you to get the harsh response from the Muslims community here in Malaysia.

actually, you do bring up a point. considering that our country holds its identity in being a Muslim country, i actually don't think it's unfair for Muslims to reject this. [and i say this with no intention to antagonize anyone]

but i wouldn't take it from the point of 'eroding moral fabrics' because i do not believe in that. i do, however, think that because the very nature of Islam conflicts with homosexuality. and this is pertinent considering our identity as a Muslim country. because freedom, while all well and good... at what cost must it be earned?

[Nicholas92]

While I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality and LGBTs trying to educate, I think that given the religious makeup of our society, it's best to keep everything out in the open - i.e. I think the event itself is fine (and apparently it's been going on a few years - no problems so far) but that they've also got to really convince anyone who fear the erosion of culture that they're not promoting a lifestyle nor attempting to spread it, but that they're trying to educate. That at least, is acceptable I think. To ask the country to change its laws to welcome homosexuals is something out of the question now - society it just not ready for that, though it certainly doesn't mean they can't try.

No politician will even touch the issue! On both sides too. The Opposition will only ever go so far as to say that the event is rightful and should go on (and that I think it should).

But seriously though, my main problem with all of this is that people are way too hung up on the wrong thing. Even if I perceived homosexuality as a negative thing (not to challenge people who strongly believe otherwise) I would not see it as *nearly* the most pressing issue facing the country right now. We're rooted deep in corruption, which last time I checked was probably a bigger sin, plus we have enough social problems in our schools already that we should consider - smoking in schools, teenage pregnancies, dropouts, drugs, mat rempits. To me, all these pose a much bigger problem for us no matter which way you slice it. I think people (like the police) should get their priorities straight. There are bigger fish to fry.

[getting off topic I realised]

[lotsatuna]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

I think you missed out that part where they say "queer without fear". Seksualiti Merdeka is a campaign to let homosexual practice to get accepted into the society, even the Muslims.

You can be naive and tell yourself that it's all about treating people indifferently regardless of their sexual preferences, but nobody's refusing service or taking different buses just because somebody's being gay somewhere here in Malaysia. People hate the practice, not the people.

It IS about both. "Allowing homosexual practice to get accepted into society" simply means that homosexuality will no longer considered a disease, eradicating the idea that homosexuals are all sick deviants with uncontrollable lust and thus eliminating widespread prejudice and discrimination. Which will then lead to people treating other people indifferently regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. It is all interconnected. I don't understand what is so WRONG about sex between two consenting adults. Islam forbids it, sure, but whatever these people do is still none of your business, regardless of whether they're Muslims or not. You do not have the right to judge these people, even if the Quran explicitly says that homosexual acts are prohibited. You can only advise them, no more no less. The judging supposed to be God's job.

edit: You know what? I did a bit of reading and discovered I was wrong. Judging is completely fine within Islam! Oh wow. Wow. So feel free to disregard the above argument.

Also you seem to be forgetting about trans* people. Seksualiti Merdeka also addresses issues concerning their lives in this country. Homosexuals may be able to get on with life relatively unharmed but that is IF AND ONLY IF they keep it a secret and only if their gender presentation matches their gender identity. As for trans people? Those who are unable to "pass" in the eyes of the cisgender public (usually trans women) will get jeered at, get insulted, get beaten up by the religious authorities if they're perceived as Malay and Muslim, get killed in hate crimes, get subjected to sexual harassment far more often than cisgender people, get fetishised and objectified, get fired from their job for no proper reason, are more likely to be homeless and etc.

You can be naive and tell yourself that these people have it good in this country and don't face much problems. You can be naive and tell yourself that your religion is more important than the thousands of lives hanging on the line, but reality is harsh.

Also, the official religion may be Islam but it is still a democracy. Regardless of whether your religion approves or not, those Muslims are simply people who are exercising their rights to freedom of speech and expression. You can't tell them what to do or restrict their autonomy. You can continue to object and express your distaste for it, just as other citizens are allowed to support it, but the event shouldn't be cancelled just because some Muslims are supporting it. It is not the fault of the event that some individuals chose to support it.

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

Homosexual practice presents harms to Muslims society, in a way that's more than just hurting the feelings of some people. It erodes our moral fabrics and destroys the pillars of our marriage institutions. When you refuse to respect this and starts campaigning to our kids and teenagers that they can be 'queer without fear' then it's only proper for you to get the harsh response from the Muslims community here in Malaysia.

Destroy the pillars of the marriage institution? I think people seem to have forgotten that the rate of divorce among heterosexual people is quite high.... so I don't see anything sacred about this "marriage institution".

We can respect your right to express your disapproval, but how about you offer us the same respect? How about you respect our right to speak in a controlled environment, in workshops and in talks? One thing that has to be cleared up is that Seksualiti Merdeka isn't trying to promote homosexuality nor is it an orgy festival, it is simply trying to raise awareness and educate people on the issues that the LGBTQ community of Malaysia face every day. It is also supposed to be a safe space for the people of the community to discuss amongst themselves. There is a difference. What some people in the Muslim community is trying to do is that they are trying to CANCEL the event, which by the way, doesn't only involve Muslims. By doing so they are infringing on the rights of the non-Muslims. Muslims aren't allowed to drink alcohol or eat pork. But other people who are able to shouldn't be stopped from doing so.

I don't know how you're going to stop the other Muslims from getting involved or supporting it, but the point I was trying to make is that it shouldn't have to be cancelled forcefully just because some Muslims have decided to support the event.


-----

warning - off-topic and may be sensitive :
i feel sad for people who want to leave but can't (since they forbid apostasy and all...). it's all fine and dandy if they willingly became Muslims. all the best to them! but for those who really want to leave, i do feel sorry. it is tragic. personally...if i were a Muslim i'd probably be dead by now. not just because of all the restrictions, the denial of my personhood or violence and disapproval, but probably because i'd have committed suicide from frustration. it is already so difficult, experiencing gender dysphoria and by extension, depression and social anxiety. but to be forced to believe in something my brain simply CANNOT believe as well, it would've been too much. it is essentially LYING to oneself. it is creating a new reality and pretending everything else one has learned later that doesn't comply with it is wrong, wrong, wrong. and then having to force myself to live in another skin? to pretend that i'm "normal"? i don't know how other people manage to live with it or reconcile their religion with their identity, but kudos to them.

[surayahamdan]

Basically lotsatuna, the harder you want to push your idea of RIGHTS to the Muslim community, the harsher the treatments you will get. So how about keeping whatever it is the disease you're carrying in your little secret society and keep us Muslims out of the picture?

And your somewhat absurd observation of Islam, along with the horrendous insults you spewed at it earned you no respect at all from us Muslims. If this is the basis of your understanding of Seksualiti Merdeka and why it should be allowed to be held, then I agree 100% that it should be banned permanently from Malaysia.

[ayjiahui]

Also, the official religion may be Islam but it is still a democracy. Regardless of whether your religion approves or not, those Muslims are simply people who are exercising their rights to freedom of speech and expression. You can't tell them what to do or restrict their autonomy. You can continue to object and express your distaste for it, just as other citizens are allowed to support it, but the event shouldn't be cancelled just because some Muslims are supporting it. It is not the fault of the event that some individuals chose to support it.

you know, just because we are a democracy it doesn't mean we have complete freedom to do whatever we want. we are democratic but we're also the furthest thing from a secular nation. religion ties very much with politics and, unfortunately because of that there are limits.

we have some freedom, yes. but thing is when things have been overstepped - for example Muslims supporting sexualiti merdeka... i think that is where the line is toed. because it conflicts with the official religion which is also a big identity of our nation. and to be really fair, i think is a just reason to stop something.

re: why shouldn't they cancel the event if Muslims support it?
if this is an integral part of a country's identity, even more reason for there to be opposition, considering that as a nation we are still very conservative!

to reiterate nicholas, we're not ready. and we're definitely hung up on the wrong things.

[personally i have nothing against LGBT and i am arguing from a bigger perspective - that a nation's identity is also a good value to uphold.]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

Basically lotsatuna, the harder you want to push your idea of RIGHTS to the Muslim community, the harsher the treatments you will get. So how about keeping whatever it is the disease you're carrying in your little secret society and keep us Muslims out of the picture?

And your somewhat absurd observation of Islam, along with the horrendous insults you spewed at it earned you no respect at all from us Muslims. If this is the basis of your understanding of Seksualiti Merdeka and why it should be allowed to be held, then I agree 100% that it should be banned permanently from Malaysia.

now now suraya... i'm sure you can play nice.

[lotsatuna]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

Basically lotsatuna, the harder you want to push your idea of RIGHTS to the Muslim community, the harsher the treatments you will get. So how about keeping whatever it is the disease you're carrying in your little secret society and keep us Muslims out of the picture?

And your somewhat absurd observation of Islam, along with the horrendous insults you spewed at it earned you no respect at all from us Muslims. If this is the basis of your understanding of Seksualiti Merdeka and why it should be allowed to be held, then I agree 100% that it should be banned permanently from Malaysia.

Uhh, I think you've got it wrong. I think I need to clarify that my point was the event shouldn't be cancelled just because some Muslims are supporting it. Because other people, who may be non-Muslims and are therefore not bound by the laws of Islam, still want to have their discussions and go for the talks and so on. Also if I'm not mistaken, Islam forbids the act, but it isn't wrong for Muslims to just attend and listen to what they have to say right? I do actually think that trying to get rights in this country is futile, what with the rigid structure and laws of Islam, but hey, you can't stop some people from trying.

If you actually bothered reading properly, I said that if you are happy as a Muslim, that's great. I'm saying it is sad for people who WANT to leave but CAN'T, regardless of whatever religion actually, but as far as I know, Islam is the only one with specific laws against apostasy. I have not insulted Islam in any way, I specified that I, alone, would feel restricted by its laws and it would feel like I was lying to myself. I respect people who can manage to actually be themselves while remaining true to their religion. I don't know how you've misread that. I don't know what basis of understanding you are referring to... to me, Seksualiti Merdeka is a platform for discussion and a safe space for solidarity among people of the gender and sexual minority.