'Keep coming out', urges Malaysia's gay pastor

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by Nicholas92

Also as Dominic has said this isn't an LGBT debate thread. Discuss the article posted, and I think we'll be more on track.

It's interesting to observe that whenever I post anything with the word gay in it, the arguments spread like wildfire. However, if I post something with the word 'transsexual' in it (there's one a few threads down), no one even bothers to comment. I wonder if it's due to:

i) people being more open and understanding towards transsexuals (though I doubt it)

ii) people are against it, but not as much as they're against homosexuality (probably true, although aren't they both LGBTs?)

iii) people don't care about it, because they don't really care about transsexuals in the first place (maybe because people have known more about transsexuals than homosexuals)

Originally Posted by joan2468

Where would I be able to find this documentary, anyway?

Download it, I guess. That's what I did a couple of years ago. If you need a link, PM me.

[surayahamdan]

Originally Posted by Cactus

1. Unfortunately your holy religion is not immune from criticism/verbal abuse/attack. Islamic laws may only apply on muslims, but public opinions help shape our laws. A lot of these opinions against homosexuality is based on religion, so I think it's acceptable to point out that saying homosexuality (or gay marriage for the discussion of this thread) 2. is wrong simply because your holy book say so is an invalid argument.

1. So since everyone's doing it, then it's OK to do it? This level of reasoning amazes me.

2. It's perfectly valid as far as Muslim goes. That is a rather primitively simple notion yet you seem to be struggling to understand it.

Originally Posted by Cactus

Nicholas92, as always, I appreciate your effort in cooling down the debate.

I just want to state that:

1. I have not claimed the Bible or Quran to be lame.
(edit: alright, maybe I did implicitly.)

What I said was:

2. It is lame to base your arguments against homosexuality on religion or the "book".

But Surayahamdan has to jump out and tell me to stop talking about Quran, which I'm not going to.

Nobody is telling you to stop talking about the Quran (in fact I'd encourage it) , I was just asking you to stop the verbal abuse. Just learn to have a little decency and nobody will "jump out" at you ever again in your life.

Originally Posted by Dominic

It's interesting to observe that whenever I post anything with the word gay in it, the arguments spread like wildfire. However, if I post something with the word 'transsexual' in it (there's one a few threads down), no one even bothers to comment. I wonder if it's due to:

i) people being more open and understanding towards transsexuals (though I doubt it)

ii) people are against it, but not as much as they're against homosexuality (probably true, although aren't they both LGBTs?)

iii) people don't care about it, because they don't really care about transsexuals in the first place (maybe because people have known more about transsexuals than homosexuals)



Download it, I guess. That's what I did a couple of years ago. If you need a link, PM me.

Probably not the best answer, but:

Transsexuals are about gender preference.
Homosexuals are about sexual preference.

People naturally attracted to subjects regarding sex more than anything else in the world.

[Nicholas92]

Originally Posted by Dominic

It's interesting to observe that whenever I post anything with the word gay in it, the arguments spread like wildfire. However, if I post something with the word 'transsexual' in it (there's one a few threads down), no one even bothers to comment.

You know, that's an interesting observation. I didn't really notice, haven't been around so much, but...yeah, it seems true. I don't really know why either...(what Surayahamdan said sounds very plausible but I don't think we can know for sure).

OK, to get back on the topic...

This Mr. Ouyang (is he Chinese? It's pretty cool) has a nice story, and I'm glad that his life seems to have gone so well - his wife accepted it, now he's got everything on track, it makes a nice change from what you normally hear, especially in the media. I remember reading this article, I think it was on Time, about this guy from China who could only be himself when he moved away from his family...for business, I think. And when he told his wife and family things went really bad with them. So it's refreshing to hear that it can and is possible to have the whole thing go peacefully.

(Oh, and his whole point about homosexuals having to step up themselves to make the change they want - well I can understand people not wanting to come out, and for good reason, and I wouldn't blame them, but at the same time I guess there's just no denying that if everyone hid at home and waited for something to happen, nothing's going to happen)

As for that church of his...well I wouldn't put it past the government to have some people raid this one too. Just hope nothing more happens what with all the ridiculous religious conspiracy theories around.

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by Nicholas92

You know, that's an interesting observation. I didn't really notice, haven't been around so much, but...yeah, it seems true. I don't really know why either...(what Surayahamdan said sounds very plausible but I don't think we can know for sure).

OK, to get back on the topic...

This Mr. Ouyang (is he Chinese? It's pretty cool) has a nice story, and I'm glad that his life seems to have gone so well - his wife accepted it, now he's got everything on track, it makes a nice change from what you normally hear, especially in the media. I remember reading this article, I think it was on Time, about this guy from China who could only be himself when he moved away from his family...for business, I think. And when he told his wife and family things went really bad with them. So it's refreshing to hear that it can and is possible to have the whole thing go peacefully.

(Oh, and his whole point about homosexuals having to step up themselves to make the change they want - well I can understand people not wanting to come out, and for good reason, and I wouldn't blame them, but at the same time I guess there's just no denying that if everyone hid at home and waited for something to happen, nothing's going to happen)

As for that church of his...well I wouldn't put it past the government to have some people raid this one too. Just hope nothing more happens what with all the ridiculous religious conspiracy theories around.

His life is definitely an inspiring one, something you don't hear often in days like these, especially in a country like Malaysia. But since the article doesn't mention exactly where his church is, I doubt the authorities will be able to find out easily. Incidentally, I do know where it is, because I've been invited to attend services every once in a while, but I've never actually gone due to transportation problems. I should probably do so one of these days, just to check the place out.

I hope the authorities don't use this against Christians. The current allegations against them are ridiculous enough without adding this to the picture. Now they might even say that Christians promote homosexuality, in addition to their religion.

[Cactus]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

1. So since everyone's doing it, then it's OK to do it? This level of reasoning amazes me.

Nope. I'm saying that just because you consider your religion holy, doesn't mean we (or rather, I) can't criticize or verbally abuse it.

Ok, I think I get your point already and shall stop arguing over words. (Feel free to reply though. It'd be unfair if I tell you to shut up only because I've made my point.)

[surayahamdan]

Originally Posted by Cactus

Nope. I'm saying that just because you consider your religion holy, doesn't mean we (or rather, I) can't criticize or verbally abuse it.

Ok, I think I get your point already and shall stop arguing over words. (Feel free to reply though. It'd be unfair if I tell you to shut up only because I've made my point.)

Good for you. I'm sure with a little more effort and a few more people sharing the same minds you can form your own version of Perkasa.

BTW, criticize & verbal abuse are actually different things in which the former is usually more professional & articulate therefore is always welcomed, while the latter only mirror the level of mental deficiency of the person who uses it. It's the reason why you never heard of such thing as "constructive verbal abuse". (Feel free to hit the thanks button if you feel a little educated now after reading my reply.)

[bush]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

Good for you. I'm sure with a little more effort and a few more people sharing the same minds you can form your own version of Perkasa.

BTW, criticize & verbal abuse are actually different things in which the former is usually more professional & articulate therefore is always welcomed, while the latter only mirror the level of mental deficiency of the person who uses it. It's the reason why you never heard of such thing as "constructive verbal abuse". (Feel free to hit the thanks button if you feel a little educated now after reading my reply.)

hahaha...I like how you describe verbal abuse.

You kisah so much for what? This discussion won't go anywhere.

[Nicholas92]

Originally Posted by bush

hahaha...I like how you describe verbal abuse.

You kisah so much for what? This discussion won't go anywhere.

That discussion is pointless, I agree.

Does have a point there though. Criticism, scrutiny...yes. Verbal abuse of a religion? Definitely not OK.

[Dominic]

After a lengthy argument on this issue on FB, the person involved ended it by saying

"for notifications' sake, stop the debate please. dominic, believe in what you believe. no point arguing over such religious matter. we know you know a lot. there's no need to splash everything out here. i posted this link is just to show that it's heartbreaking and a disgrace to actually see a PASTOR being GAY and the best thing is, he's a MALAYSIAN."

I was like, WTF? The whole thing was proceeding in a civil manner, and when he realized he can't win, he does this. Sigh, and he seems to have missed the entire point of the argument....

[Cactus]

Originally Posted by Dominic

After a lengthy argument on this issue on FB, the person involved ended it by saying

I was like, WTF? The whole thing was proceeding in a civil manner, and when he realized he can't win, he does this. Sigh, and he seems to have missed the entire point of the argument....

I suppose that means you "won" the argument.

But rational arguments don't always work on people.

Personally I believe in coming out. Let people see that we are just humans like everyone else. Kill "their" negative imagination about our so-called "lifestyle" with our open and positive lives.