'Keep coming out', urges Malaysia's gay pastor

[surayahamdan]

Originally Posted by Cactus

I'm talking about opinion, not law.

I don't recall you strictly speaking about opinion.

"Lame reasons against homosexuality:

1. The Bible, The Quran, whatever."

And Islamic rulings against homosexuality is not a matter of opinion, it's strictly a law. Don't like it? Well, don't be one.

Yours however, is quite fittingly an opinion, and a relatively shallow one at that.

I have no interest to debate on Islam vs homosexuality here, because you're not even a Muslim and apparently have very little respect for it to even start with. So feel free to batter up all these homosexual issues until the cows come home but please, leave my Holy Quran away from your verbal abuse. Thank you.

[Cactus]

Originally Posted by surayahamdan

I don't recall you strictly speaking about opinion.

"Lame reasons against homosexuality:

1. The Bible, The Quran, whatever."

And Islamic rulings against homosexuality is not a matter of opinion, it's strictly a law. Don't like it? Well, don't be one.

Yours however, is quite fittingly an opinion, and a relatively shallow one at that.

I have no interest to debate on Islam vs homosexuality here, because you're not even a Muslim and apparently have very little respect for it to even start with. So feel free to batter up all these homosexual issues until the cows come home but please, leave my Holy Quran away from your verbal abuse. Thank you.

Unfortunately your holy religion is not immune from criticism/verbal abuse/attack. Islamic laws may only apply on muslims, but public opinions help shape our laws. A lot of these opinions against homosexuality is based on religion, so I think it's acceptable to point out that saying homosexuality (or gay marriage for the discussion of this thread) is wrong simply because your holy book say so is an invalid argument.

[zanyzephyr]

The laws and rules in any religion holy books including the Bible and Quran both have their own defects and loopholes somewhere in which people can abuse them. But I had never read any, and I'd merely received informations from various practitioners of the religions. So seriously, like what I've said, laws and rules in the religions do not and should never restrict people. If you want to talk about straight people's rules, its not like all straight people abide them anyway! And if you are trying to say the portion of straight people who defies those rules written in the holy books is larger than that of the gay people, THINK AGAIN.

Probably there are more straight hell goers compared to gay ones. In fact, the gay ones weren't wrong to begin with! So its totally up to ones' belief and upbringing on their ways and methods of handling their relationships matters.

If the couple, no matter straight or homo, practices good relationships and both of them provides each other happiness, do other factors matters? It's not all about sex between 2 people, there's more than sex as the stereotyping majority perceives. The couple may have had share events, experiences which transcends brotherhood between the normal hetero males. Let them have it that way. It's not like it's not healthy because it IS!! They do not commit adultery, they are able to raise children and serve the community, just like anyone else.

There are quite a number of gays around. I don't see any of them being struck down by lightning, of being wrapped up in fire before! Owh, you are telling me they are definitely going to hell after they die because they loved and care for someone, who is the same sex? Think again. They'd probably do 1000 times much more good deed than any living straight out there can.

I do not believe in judgment by the God or any higher calling behind our backs because they don't. They can't strike a lightning down, they can't wrap anyone in fire, nor can they send people to hell because people did what They said the people can't. Why? Because these are all not legit, and you have no prove. The Books said so? Well, have you asked the dead before? Seriously, you have got to show better evidence that what was written in there.

So, conclusion is, religion never really did bicker into people' relationship before, in fact they were just guidelines meant to be challenged by people anyway! As far as I'm concerned, the rules and laws in religions sometimes is misleading, and so not justified. People you are smart and intelligent. Let sow some wisdom and think out of the box.

[Nicholas92]

Whoa, people, before this gets out of hand let's just cool off, okay?

This isn't a thread about debating homosexuality. Who knows how many of those we've had already and they'll all end the same way so let's not go there. It's not a place to criticise or cross-examine religions and call whatever rules or laws that they may impose ridiculous or bad. I believe the thread wasn't started in the spirit of calling the Quran outdated or the Bible contradictory or anything like that.

Some people have their own views already, and sometimes it's just a very strong conviction - this goes for both sides. Do you really think fighting about this sort of thing here is going to change the minds of anybody about anything? Especially if it's going to end up like the mud-slinging fight that it usually is.

[Cactus]

Originally Posted by Nicholas92

Whoa, people, before this gets out of hand let's just cool off, okay?

This isn't a thread about debating homosexuality. Who knows how many of those we've had already and they'll all end the same way so let's not go there. It's not a place to criticise or cross-examine religions and call whatever rules or laws that they may impose ridiculous or bad. I believe the thread wasn't started in the spirit of calling the Quran outdated or the Bible contradictory or anything like that.

Some people have their own views already, and sometimes it's just a very strong conviction - this goes for both sides. Do you really think fighting about this sort of thing here is going to change the minds of anybody about anything? Especially if it's going to end up like the mud-slinging fight that it usually is.

Nicholas92, as always, I appreciate your effort in cooling down the debate.

I just want to state that:

1. I have not claimed the Bible or Quran to be lame.
(edit: alright, maybe I did implicitly.)

What I said was:

2. It is lame to base your arguments against homosexuality on religion or the "book".

But Surayahamdan has to jump out and tell me to stop talking about Quran, which I'm not going to.

[Dominic]

I started this thread not for the reason of debating on the issue of homosexuality, which I have done time and time again, either here or on Facebook. I simply wanted to create awareness on the issue, to show people that there are Christians and churches who are not against homosexuality, unlike popular belief.

[bush]

For christians, do watch the documentary "For the bible tells me so"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_Bible_Tells_Me_So

You'll learn a lot.

Don't being Islam into this. This topic was about a gay pastor and his church.

[Nicholas92]

Originally Posted by Cactus

Nicholas92, as always, I appreciate your effort in cooling down the debate.

I just want to state that:

1. I have not claimed the Bible or Quran to be lame.
(edit: alright, maybe I did implicitly.)

What I said was:

2. It is lame to base your arguments against homosexuality on religion or the "book".

But Surayahamdan has to jump out and tell me to stop talking about Quran, which I'm not going to.

In all fairness, trying to buttress your arguments by claiming that the counter-argument is 'lame' is...not exactly the best way to prove anything, is it? (You kinda did call it lame though).

As for not talking about the Quran...I think when it comes to things like what religion says, it's best to know exactly what's being said and not what's the general perception. I haven't studied the Quran so I wouldn't really decide to comment on whether things are justified or not. I understand how Surayahamdan may be somewhat exasperated or annoyed if people keep referring to the Quran based on cursory or perceptive knowledge rather than any real understanding of the texts.

And like Bush said, the thread isn't at all about the Quran or Islam so why drag them into this discussion? Also as Dominic has said this isn't an LGBT debate thread. Discuss the article posted, and I think we'll be more on track.

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by bush

For christians, do watch the documentary "For the bible tells me so"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_Bible_Tells_Me_So

You'll learn a lot.

Don't being Islam into this. This topic was about a gay pastor and his church.

For Muslims (or anyone else) who are interested, try watching the documentary 'A Jihad for Love'. It provides a different perspective to the belief that Islam is against homosexuality. You'll be able to understand better that way.

[joan2468]

Originally Posted by Dominic

For Muslims (or anyone else) who are interested, try watching the documentary 'A Jihad for Love'. It provides a different perspective to the belief that Islam is against homosexuality. You'll be able to understand better that way.

Where would I be able to find this documentary, anyway?